Regardless, congrats to them for bringing together so many characters into a single entity.
Unfortunately, it's indicative of what's exactly wrong with null sec at the moment.
I took the top 121 alliances ranked by member count (because in null sec, member count is the only resource that matters) and plopped them into a spreadsheet. Then I calculated the percentage each alliances membership accounted for the total of the top 121 alliances.
Both TEST and Goonswarm are nearly twice as big as the next largest non-renter alliance individually, and together are almost as large as the combined total of the next 6 largest non-renter alliances.
For all intents and purposes, null sec has devolved into a single superpower political structure. I know that the TEST led Honey Badger Coalition is a separate entity from the Goon led Cluster Fuck Coalition, but as long as they are nominally friendly to each other, it is fait accompli that there is no alliance that can threaten them. For all the fault that lies with Against ALL Authorities for their handling of the Southern Coalition and failures in the recent Delve war, one wonders if they ever really had a chance.
However, the thing that really bugs me is players belonging to these two mega-coalitions centred on the two most massive alliances in the game complaining how stagnant null sec is and bitterly complaining on podcast after podcast how CCP needs to "fix null sec". (I'm looking mainly at you Selene, but there are others.)
Eve is a sandbox; CCP has given tools and the players have decided to make null sec a uni-super-power political landscape. If you don't like it, members of the coalition blob, do something to change it. Its the height of hypocrisy to sit in the most stagnant-inducing power structure and complain about state of the game.
Stop waiting for CCP to magically bail you out with some magic bullet that will never come. Mix it up, shake things up, do something different. Because right now you are not "winning Eve", you are merely contributing to the problem you rail so furiously against.
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Well said
ReplyDeleteVery well said indeed.
ReplyDeleteAnd no, we did not have a chance in the Delve war. I remember very well the day we managed to form a very substantial fleet of more than 500 people...just to meet 1200, with 800 more on the way.
As for AAA having the resources to win in Delve they certainly didn't, and they are entirely to blame for it. Looking at the Goon work to build their coalition over the last 18 months they deserved the victory. Absolutely none of what was accomplished was done through pure "elite pvp" --- it was diplomacy and alliance building pure and simple. BTW, how many of those renters could have been members of the Southern Coalition and fought for the space instead of leaving. Goons have no renters - go figure.
ReplyDeleteI have no problem with Goons and Test working hard to build up big alliances and coalitions. I do have issues with members of said coalitions complaining about the state of null sec as if they have no hand in it.
ReplyDeleteAs EVE's playerbase grows, it's inevitable that so will the size of the fights and alliances and coalitions in its warfare. Complaints about the size of these coalitions and alliances are really not prevalent except from the tired, worn out butts of the losers, as they ever have been.
DeleteMost of the complaints you hear from the members of these big blocs asking CCP to "fix nullsec" are asking for refinements and progressions in the mechanics of the warfare itself; as EVE's warfare evolves to include ever more players, so must the way the game is played on such a scale. It's an inevitable change and really not all that wrong to call for.
This is so laughable.
ReplyDeleteNoob carebears are joining both TEST and Goons in droves, just to be able to mine, mission, et al, in relative peace, safe from high sec gankers and ninjas.
Null sec has become so safe that it is now more dangerous and fun to PVP in high sec.
Now, if we can only "fix" low sec, so that it will be equally boring....
It's about more than hypocrisy though, isn't it? Is there a way that game mechanics can encourage a patchwork quilt of backstabbing nations in the style of the board game Diplomacy or are we heading towards an all blue null sec where the only ways to pvp are awoxing and cloaky camping?
ReplyDeleteI honestly don't know but I suspect it's up to the designers rather than the players. Players will do whatever it takes to win and those that don't will be beaten by those that do. Currently "whatever it takes" is blueing everyone possible and defeating the remainder in detail.
^^ Kinda thinkin he's onto something.
DeleteEVE is "win at ALL costs", and if you're not doing the "max" thing that wins you what you want, then you're by default doing the "min" thing, and a n00b who deserves a skull-crushing defeat for doing so.
Pretty sure that the incentives you're thinking of are pretty thoroughly covered by human nature already. All that is provided are resources in locations and organization structures to identify players; everything else is pretty artificial.
DeleteThese things are all cycles, they fracture, then they form back up, then they fracture again. Sooner or later a large chunk of Goon/TEST will grow bored with the status quo and break off and go do something less boring. Or something else will happen. This last period has been amazingly long however, since the great northern blueness broke up ( I sure remember someone around here telling us all how awesome those large coalitions were... huh? Wonder who that was?)
ReplyDeleteI don't understand people. They bitch, moan, complain, and pretend to be individuals then flock together like sheep.
@Rixx : if you are talking about this post from March 2011: http://www.ninveah.com/2011/03/large-coalitions-are-not-bad-for-eve.html
ReplyDeleteI want to point out that there were several coalitions at the time, many in active power bloc wars with each other. However what we have now is unprecedented with only two uber-coalitions which happen to be (mostly) blue to each other! Much different than 18 months ago (PS I'd love to see null sec back in that state TBH).
I hope that the pendulum comes back again and the current consolidation of power and members splinters: the Drone Russians did it for themselves when they looked nigh invincible, so there is reason to hope.
It is never the same thing, but it is always the same thing. And I know plenty of TEST and Goons that would argue it is equally as well. Personally I think it is all bad for Eve, as I argued back then if you'll remember. Power condensed into fewer and fewer hands is always, ALWAYS, a bad idea.
DeleteThe good news is that it cannot last. It never does. Unlike RL where people tend to congregate for long-term safety in numbers, establishing sensible borders, uniting under common flags and generally trying to avoid conflict - Eve doesn't work like that. Thank goodness.
The Goons have been down this road before and it didn't work then and it won't work now. Granted, this particular bit has been longer than expected, but it will eventually implode, or explode or something. Mostly because it becomes boring, predictable and tiresome.
And I don't necessarily disagree with most of what you just said. Its the complainers in these power blocs that get me.
ReplyDeleteAlso, I don't know how to use the right reply button. *forehead smack*
ReplyDeleteNo problem. It is such a pain in the #$% to keep multiple google accounts anymore, it makes commenting so time consuming.
DeleteYour base argument is correct. Bunch of whiners and babies in these things, else why would 10k of them need to huddle together like sheep? If they were Men they'd be doing manly things, like forging their own destinies, conquering their own territories and forging their own paths... y'know, fun stuff. It is the mentality of the flocker in action. And you are correct, it is irritating.
Interesting times. A lot of sov has been changing hands lately and this year may prove to be one of the bloodiest in the eve history (in terms of the number sov flips). I too am nostalgic about the old MAX campaigns and the corresponding political scene, but the present seems to be somewhat more... sophisticated. The prevailing Goon/TEST mentality is that only winning counts, no matter the price, and they have an extremely efficient diplomatic/propaganda machine oiling all the cogs (and props to them, it works).
ReplyDeleteYes, there is the argument that the blob will eventually collapse due to its own weight, the history seems to heavily suggest this. But there is also the counterargument of the chinese server, where, somehow, they avoided the collapse and null sec was united under stable non-aggression pacts.
As a side note, you could argue that eve was "won" by the former DRF forces about an year back, when they rampaged through the north, beaten the south into a bloody pulp and had friendly relations with the newly emerging CFC. The "winning" didn't bring them much good though.