Tuesday, February 15, 2011

Response to Percolation

I'm no Mord Fiddle, so when I make a post that I know might cause controversy I brace myself for people point out the obvious flaws of my reasoning regardless of how much thought I put into them.

So when Percolation responded very negatively to my post about the NC and Eve yesterday, I gave it a lot of thought to see how much merit his vigorous criticisms have. I decided to post my response as a full post instead of a comment reply.

3 things to your damn awful justification

1. All of 0.0 can be blue and use the same "we are not part of the same coalition we are just blue" logic, :facepalm: do you even get eve or 0.0?
Being blue to someone is not the same as working hand in hand in both offence and defence. Hence why alliances will sometimes 'temp blue' each other for a short period, even as short as a single battle. Just because AAA and CVA worked together once to catch some NCDOT supercarriers does not make them a coalition.

2. IF THE COALITION HAS AN ALLIANCE BLUE THEN THEY ARE PART OF THAT COALITION, no matter if you call yourself wank coalition, jesus tribe or MAGE wtf?
As per above, I disagree. Blue means good standings and in Eve that means we don't shoot at them. Cooperation for mutual defence is another level above that and cooperation for combined attack is yet another level above that. Equating 'blue' to 'coalition' is very simplistic in the complex interplay of eve politics.
3. NC is ALL those coalitions combined, they will never reset (much like they DIDNT in 2009) WHY? Because Vuk Lau is a RMT [edited] and his RL business needs protection.
 Yes, one man can control the actions of, what, 50,000 pilots? I have my doubts. Even if Vuk Lau was paying off alliance leaderships to protect his RMT business, I have no idea how such a conspiracy would survive even simple investigation by CCP internal affairs, something that had to happen when he was part of the CSM.

But let's live in your world where he is a RMT mastermind arranging alliance after alliance as a buffer and money laundering scheme around him. Alliances are notoriously fickle in leadership as people come and go from the game, to say they all will never reset seems, again, simplistic. I notice a running theme here.
By your logic everyone in the north is FREE and independent, anyone who has been playing for more than 2 years will know NC will NEVER split because NC splitting means NC dead and RL income will be screwed.
I suspect that if RL income is involved then people would be more likely to turn on each other, not band together. Overall, most people in Eve are good honest people who abhor RMT activities. The outrage against the massive botting in the game is evidence of that.

But let's say you're right. Let's say that the NC is held together by the strings of RMT protection and not mutual defence. Such a massive conspiracy is going to get the attention of CCP sooner or later and a massive ban will happen. Do you remember the moon goo scandal back in 2008? Might have been before your time junior, but CCP banned 70 accounts and deleted a bunch of ships and POSes. Sure, it took them long enough but once the conspiracy was discovered they acted with the hammer, tech II economy be damned. So if you're right, start banging on CCP's door with your evidence (lol!) and get that slow moving ban hammer moving, the sooner the better.
/sigh I will come back to your blog one year from now only to quote what I have said and list the additional 50 extra NC alliances you will see, who will call themselves "Delve Coalition" but will still be blue to NC AND will get help from NC during an invasion but will class themselves as independent.
I'll put it in my calendar. See you then!

Worst justification ever, oh and the only reason you are justifying NC is because deep down you know how bad the NAP situation is :sigh:
 Sigh indeed. I don't think I justified the existence of the NC, only that I felt it was not bad for Eve Online and that sooner or later it would collapse under its own weight.

BUT WAIT: There's more in a second comment.

PS. We left NC alone in 2009, THEY ONLY GOT BIGGER!!
Then IT came in 2010 and what did NC do? They tried to help the NAP train, as long as Vuk is making $$ out of EVE NC will NEVER split and you will see bad logic and reasons to why NC remains fat and bloated, like BFF propaganda etc

If NC is terribad and bloated and fat, etc, then shouldn't their enemies take to a smaller warfare apporach and attack the membership of the NC instead of the sov? Wouldn't that have more impact at tearing down Vuk Lau's empire rather than forcing the NC together with MAX DAMAGE campaigns? I think the failure here is not NC, its their enemies' thinking and strategy. I'm just saying.

See you in a year! Unless Eve is dead by then due to Vuk Lau.


  1. Go bless this ship and all who sail in her,
    And protect her from bad logic in the dark depths of space.

  2. Anonymous9:41 am

    while my blog is undergoing a slight refit I wanted to comment here rather than post.

    with SYS-K and IT we were blue and we would help defend their space as they helped defend ours..the " blue" definition is misleading as it pertains to the context in which it was negotiated.

    Anyone who was blue to SYS_k was defended or fought with. SO depending on what a particular blue status means depends on your context of course.

    The simple weight of space management will crumble the NC bloc, of that I am sure...how LONG that will take is unknown.

    With C0ven and SE all wanting not good fights, but 'close' good fights I would expect any one of them to attack anyone else whoever happens to be the closest available target.

    As far as RMT stuff CCP is fairly/unfairly depending on your POV, inept at tracking down bots. The recent article which was fairly well written about the drone lands bots was fairly revealing as to the extent that one guy can determine bots in that area.

  3. To be clear, I'm not saying there is not botting in the NC. I have no inkling as to the extent of botting in any alliance other than what I saw in the drone lands while in RAGE.

    (as an aside, I'm sure CCP could track down the bots if someone in power ordered the devs to do so. Its not a matter of ability, but of direction. As to why that direction is missing depends on your point of view right now.)

    I do, however, find the thought that the NC exists to protect Vuk Lau's real life RMT business a little over the top.

  4. I completely agree with your response here. I have recently replied similarly to a blog that had the same doom gloom point of view of Percolation. I really don't see how people can see something as big as NC staying anywhere near together for very long during even a short time of 'peace'.

    Just look at recent events! :)

    I will subscribe to your blog.

  5. Thank goodness Eve isn't the real world where power blocs hunker down and defend their borders in relatively stable protectionist economies, but rather a constantly changing and adaptive environment of personalities, hungers and desires that flow and ebb like the tide. Heck, just watch one of those Sov Map time lapse videos and see it in action.

    The NC is a power bloc. No one can deny that. That doesn't make it a cohesive Alliance per se, but yet it acts in much the way one large cohesive Alliance would act. In all the ways that are important, much of this argument is simply semantics. Whatever you want to call it, in the final analysis the NC's spread and its carebear core and blue stability is bad for Eve and it will not, cannot, stand.

    Internally, externally, or in any combination of those pressures, the NC was doomed the moment it formed. As are all power blocs within New Eden.

  6. Yeah Kirith, like I'm not the king of reader blow-back. ;)

    Anyway, being blue does not a coalition make.

    In fact, an alliance can be blue to two other alliances that are red to each other. As is pointed out by Kirith and Manasi, much depends on the policy and purpose behind the blue status.

    Having said that, at present there is no clear, concise definition of coalition in the Eve context. It's a very imprecise term - the meaning being very dependent upon how the person using the term defines it.

    Consequently, unless one's intent is to troll or mislead, an upfront definition for coalitions is a prerequisite to a meaningful discussion of them.

    For example, when I speak or write about a coalition, I'm referring to a collection of alliances that choose to closely coordinate their foreign and defense (and possibly trade and industrial) policies on an ongoing basis for the common good. In essence, they operate as a loosely coupled macro-alliance.

    Someone else invoking coalitions might be referring to multiple alliances with a simple mutual defense pact.

    In the case of Percolation, coalitions are any alliances that are set blue to each other; a definition so loose as to be meaningless in the context of the discussion at hand.

  7. Anonymous2:07 pm

    I remember in 2007 when BoB was the uber machine, with no real opposition, a connection of NAPs and active super-alliances and everyone swore that BoB would last forever.

    They just blew up for the 2nd time. Eventually Internal pressures will overwhelm them, either because people want a better experience than NC leadership can provide (ignoring any RMT issues) or if there IS significant RMT then people wanting a bigger share of the pie, as you said. Also game mechanics could change that make the NC less workable in practice. Imagine if CCP made it so that only people from 1 alliance could use a Jump Bridge. NC would face an enormous logistical challenge in any attempt to redeploy forces.

    OR NC could lose all their supercaps in one big battle. But what are the odds of that :D

  8. Anonymous3:36 pm

    I lol'd.

  9. "Just because AAA and CVA worked together once to catch some NCDOT supercarriers does not make them a coalition."

    I should have stopped reading after your comment here, firstly comparing anything that happens in the south to justify the north is stupid, secondly lets assume AAA and CVA did TEMP BLUE ONCE!!

    Well this was unheard of and you want to know why it was unheard of? BECAUSE THEY TEMP BLUED ONCE (assuming they did).

    The NC have had the same blues + more for the past 4 years and have ALWAYS gotten involved in EVERY invasion, how can you possibly compare 'temp blueing' to NC's meatshield megatopia.

    NC is EVERY alliance it has blue it will ALWAYS be blue in the past 4 years the following blue alliances have been reset. Init, C02, IRON, Defi4nt, Vanguard etc, according to you every other alliance is 'Temp Blue', zzz and with each reset ALL of NC came to devour

    One of the major issues right now was when IT said good bye to sov warfare etc, they literally gave up on EVE accepted that they dont have the numbers to fight NC and there was no point in playing the same crappy grudge, there comes a point when you have to say "meh fuck this time consuming work, time to move on".

    You would think with NCs ultimate enemy breaking and moving along you would have NC follow, instead what do we see? NC decide to take advantage of the Intel and invade fountain LOLOLOLOLOLOL which is why that fountain invasion coincidently happened the same week after corps said “this isn’t working anymore, we want new fresh stuff todo”.

    Anyone with a major spy in IT at this point was like "ermm wtf are goons doing? IT are dying, why should NC get their space" and so the hate on NC grew. NC WANTS to control all of 0.0, its been the mission since 2009 and tbh they would have gotten away with it if IT never returned and if PL didnt get pissed at them.

    In the end NC are nothing more than an overgrown cancer that has spread too much and needs another cancer to kill it, aka DRF. In short 0.0 is fucked and will be until CCP fix 0.0, until then you will always have one mega coalition stronger than the other, in this case it is DRF who are devouring NC.

    Spin it, counter it, whine about it anyway you want but unless NC are dead by DRF (which btw happened after my comment :D) they will just get bigger and bigger, boredom WONT kill NC because NC rely on ISK in 0.0 to fund RL stuff.

    Saying that, NC lost about a trillion ISK in one battle, if anyone wants to be part of the NC destruction they should invade now, NC have ordered EVERYONE to ignore the DRF invasion for now and stick to roaming ONLY.

    Time to kill NC and claim their space for ourselves :D

  10. Certifiably....

    The NC will eventually fracture and break up, and I say this as someone in one of the main NC alliances (Morsus Mihi).

    It just comes down to the question of the right pressure being applied.

    Be that either external invasion, internal conflict, gameplay changes (jump bridge removal), or some other thing we can't forsee.

    No major power survives in Eve forever...

  11. Percolation, stop exposing mai RMT scheme and I will pay you RL moneyz to buy tin foil hats with.

    -Vuk Lau

  12. Percolation.. nobody likes you. Please shut up. Your wrong. Kthxbye

  13. I am so mad. Everyone knows that TEST will turn on the NC for harboring OWN any day now. We have already infiltrated Goons to the very top!

    Also, NC actually employs the bot writers. It is all part of their plan to destabilize the world MMO economy in service of the Illuminati. There is no such thing as a paranoid EVE player. Vuk Vuk goose.

    (I hope this brief descent into insanity did the OP justice or was at least mildly entertaining...)

  14. Percoalition probably needs an early bed time.
    Maybe his daddy can teach him how respect works.