Thursday, February 07, 2013

Don't Buy Your Own Propaganda

On the latest episode of Shunners and Sinners podcast they get into a short discussion of the almost-war between CFC and HBC and start talking about how the war was averted because no one wanted to grind the trillions of structure hitpoints involved to wage this war.



The structures we are primarily talking about, TCUs, SBUs, and IHubs, existed as of November 2009 when Dominion was released. Another structure to grind, POSes, have existed since many years earlier.

You got that? This shit is not new.

How many wars do you think the members of the alliances that make up the CFC and HBC have been in since late 2009? That's 3+ years for the chronologically impaired, and includes more recent highlights like the scouring of IT from Fountain and Delve, the crushing of White Noise and NCdot, the brushing aside of the Southern Coalition and vanquishing of Triple A... etc etc etc. Go ahead, think on it for a minute. I'll wait.


Ok, now consider this: what the hell has changed in early 2013 to suddenly make the thought of an all out war with an enemy that will bring huge good fights that, ostensibly, everyone wants such an unbearable burden that the leaders of said coalitions will do anything to avoid all out war?

The answer is, of course, nothing... and everything. But this post is not about the reasons for why that war was aborted. No, this post is a message to all those CFC and HBC grunts who are spouting structure grinds as a reason for not having a war, and the message is simply this: don't buy into your own propaganda. It makes you look foolish.

This is not about structure grinds, its about protecting space empires.


  1. To which CFC corporations do the hosts belong?

  2. IIRC, they were in HBC and CFC.

    1. They're in Li3 Federation, my old alliance, which is in HBC. It's the alliance of the Lost in Eve podcast and is collecting podcasters the way PL collects FCs.

  3. Your hand waving dismissal seems at least as shallow as their acceptance of the sov grind theory.

    Yes, a lot of wars have gone by. The last year alone has seen several wars of conquest. And how many of them were a short, sharp conflict, followed by a cascade fail and an easy sov clean up? That certainly sounds like what happened with White Noise, Raiden, Nulli Secunda, and IRC.

    Meanwhile, the war with Northern Coalition, which did not have all that many systems or towers to deal with, dragged on for quite a while, to the point that people were pointing and shouting "Goon Fail!" because the CFC wasn't winning fast enough.

    Now, count all the systems and towers that represent the CFC or the HBC, assume neither will be a quick cascade fail, and then go back to your list of wars and tell me how many of them represented those sorts of numbers and that kind of commitment.

    Saying structure grinds were not a factor seems as silly as saying that it was the only factor.

    1. The point is Wilhelm a CFC v HBC war would have more ship v ship combat relative to the amount of structure grinding. So it's daft to say campaigns like Tribute or Esoteria which were all blueballing and structure grind are fine but a Great War would be horrible because proportionately there would be less structure shooting as you'd be fighting people who undock.

  4. There's a distinct disconnect sometimes between members of these Coalitions and the rest of Eve. Some viewpoints are so continuously circulated as true that people seem to just absorb them and hold them as "common sense." I suppose it is common sense in that it's held in common by everyone they talk about Eve to.

    It does make discussing the game quite hard sometimes as when one talks about a sandbox game that should suit diverse playstyles you get shouted down by fans of forced grouping pvp.

  5. How about you grind multiple regions in a war and enjoy the whole process. We don't exist for your entertainment, sorry brodachi.

  6. Here's a thought: don't sov grind your opponent's entire space. It doesn't happen in the real world, and it shouldn't have to happen in Eve.

    Instead, CFC or HBC or whomever can decide to annex someone else's region, or constellation, or even just a key system. Don't make the downfall of an entire coalition your objective. You get your fights without months of sov grind. That's how it works IRL; countries fight over contested territories; they don't usually go for full genocide.