Friday, October 19, 2012

You May Be Correct, But Not Necessarily Right

So as part of a week of rants, Ripard Teg bemoaned the rise of the Retribution Scythe as a "replacement" for the Tech II Scimitar:
Problem is, the Scythe is not an attractive alternative. It's a replacement. It turns all that time training the actual Logistics skill into wasted time and is going to put 75 million SP characters into T1 cruisers.
This statement stems from the initial numbers of the new Tech I Scythe support cruiser bonuses:
Cruiser skill bonuses:
-> 15% bonus to Shield Transporter boost amount
-> 5% reduction in Shield Transporter cap useRole Bonus:
-> 1000% bonus to the range of Shield Transporters
-> 100% bonus to Logistic Drone (both armor and shield) rep amount
Meanwhile, the Tech II Scimitar Logistic Cruiser has the following bonuses:
Minmatar Cruiser Skill Bonus:
-> 150% bonus to Tracking Link and Shield Transport range
-> 20% bonus to Shield Maintenance Bot transport amount per levelLogistics Skill Bonus:
-> 10% bonus to Tracking Link efficiency
-> 15% reduction in Shield Transport capacitor use per levelRole Bonus:
-> -50% CPU need for Shield Transporters
So for the relevant skills all at level V, we see that the Scythe has 75% bonus to shield transporter amount compared to none for the Scimitar and a 1000% bonus to range compared to 750% bonus for the Tech II ship. In favour to the Scimitar, it has a 75% reductions in cap use compared to only 25% for the Scythe.

So Ripard is correct: the Scythe will out range and out repair the Scimitar by a huge margin. I'm not as inclined to dismiss the tanking and maneuverability of the Scimitar over the Scythe, but I recognize that being able to repair from 90km away larger amount will make the Scythe a strong choice for logistic support in battle.

But I disagree that Logistics skill training is a wasted effort in the long term.

CCP's tiericide started with frigates and has accelerate into destroyers and cruisers for the Retribution patch. Its not inconceivable that the battlecruisers and battleships will be rebalanced in Retribution 1.1, 1.2, and/or 1.3. If their acceleration on balancing continues, we may even see the Tech II frigates addressed before the summer patch. Regardless, I'm willing to bet that the Scimitar and other Logistics ships will come under the microscope in the summer expansion or soon thereafter in a 1.x release. And when these ships are looked at, there is a strong possibility that they will receive similar bonus changes to make them a valid alternative over the Scythe (and I'm not sure they won't be already due to tech II qualities like speed and tank).

In other words, the Scythe and brethren *may* dominate the logistics landscape for 6 months, 8 tops. Then we'll be back to saying its a valid alternative to the more expensive but better performing tech II version.


  1. "So Ripard is correct: the Scythe will out range and out repair the Scimitar by a huge margin."

    No, because you've failed to account for the different slot layouts and the fact that many of the scythe's slots will need to go to cap regen to be cap stable. The scythe will be worse, but not enough worse considering its cost, like Ripard said. I expect that the release states of the Scythe will be nerfed from these stats.

  2. You fail to consider the time required to train all T1 logi skills to V vs. the time required to train all T2 logi skills to V. Everyone seems to assume that everyone in the game has all skills maxed to V, which is just silly.

    The main limitation on the number of logis in a gang/fleet/corp/alliance isn't the cost of the ship, but the relatively low number of logi pilots, which, in turn, is primarily due to the high SP requirements.

    The new T1 logi ships change everything. There just isn't going to be much incentive to spend a month on Logi V, when you can get near or better performance from a T1 logi ship which doesn't require the Logi skill at all. A new logi pilot will be better off spending that training time on general support skills - cap, CPU, PG, etc. Needless to say, a maxed skilled T1 logi will always out-perform a T2 logi, flown with less than level V skills.

  3. I think I can remember reading about this in the thread. The T1 versions will NOT be able to fit the large remote reps. They will not be getting the CPU reduction bonuses, and thus they wont have the range or overall rep power of the T2 as they will be limited to the med RR.

    But this might be my memory failing.

    1. No, this is definitely correct. Jester completely oversperged on this one.

      The Scythe with two Large S95a shield transporters will only have about 90 powergrid left over before fitting mods, and those two shield transporters will use 50% more capacitor than FOUR of them would on a Scimitar while only repairing as much as 3.5. With a dire need for more fitting mods to make the ship viable and a mere 16% better base capacitor recharge than the Scimitar, it will be nigh impossible to fit a useful fit including propulsion and cap stability.

      tl;dr Jester is still a big dummy, this much has not changed.

    2. And need I mention that you would need a sensor booster to target far enough to make large reps worthwhile? Even with fleet leadership deploying Information Warfare V you will only be able to target about as far as a Scimitar can already rep. And we aren't even considering fitting a tank on the ship. And there are no resist bonuses to help keep you alive. And you have 76% the sensor strength without the ease of fitting an ECCM, and a 15% larger signature radius.

      No, the Scimitar is still clearly superior.